Wow. They weren’t even subtle about it.

Haha. That reminds me of this article we wrote on how to properly advance a show: http://diymusician.cdbaby.com/2011/07/advancing-your-show-how-to-confirm-gig-details-ahead-of-time-for-peace-of-mind/

That’s why, when I book a show, I send a separate email with all of the details…. load in, pay, set time, etc. Now if there’s a way to get bands to actually read that email – I’d love to hear it.

If you are doing a contracted night, especially if your a promoter working with the venue, its good to go over all invoices, as I have experienced them being tampered with to the sum of hundreds of pounds, if possible place your own ‘trusted’ door rep on the show, who will be much more accurate with, the cash, guest list etc. I’ts a wise move to keep tabs on the whole deal, will you be getting a cut of the bar? will you be getting a cut of the gross profit or the net profit? Are you getting a guarantee? Sometimes promoters do a shocking job with a great band and you end up playing to 10 people. Sometimes other external factors like really bad weather are at fault for a poor turn out, so do some research before playing (in order to be fair, promoting can be very tough) or get that guarantee. Check all cash cheques there and then and bring any receipts for travel or agreed expenses, you will find it hard to get petrol money etc back the next day, the run around occurs pretty regularly in promotions.

Basically just be sure of the facts & Figures and don’t be afraid to question things until you get an honest answer, a good venue or promoter will be honest with you from the start, a bad one won’t.

Yes. Best to remember those facts and figures! You might need ammo to keep someone honest.

i talked to a club owner years ago and he told me exactly the tricks: charge every band for promotion but do a group ad/poster; tell them the club limit is 400 but allow in 600…. etc etc. exactly like in your article.

this guy owned lots of property and fancy cars, but drove a clunker to work so that his staff wouldn’t ask for more pay… that kinda thing.

get your own guy on the door or at the venue counting people. bruce springsteen did it, and would always catch the promoter undercounting a few thousand seats… (they’d show him an out of date blueprint for the venue.) he also watched for things like “entertainment tax of 3%” and other fictional add-ons… like the venue charging for bottled water (which they’d buy and mark up) etc.

there must be some sort of “club promoter 101″ course they teach.

Ha. Shady!

And then of course there is the usual “sell x tickets you have to buy from us first” scam.

Sounds like a few gigs I played when I was 19.

Pretty girls are never bad for crowd attendance, but still, the door person should always ask you first before letting anyone in for free.

Join the American Federation of Musicians. Use an AFM Contract and file it with the Local before the gig with all the terms listed. If the venue strays from that contract one cent, it is then the AFM’s job to go after them.

If the buyer won’t sign a contract, I won’t trust them.

Do you find that your typical bar or small music venue is reluctant to work with AFM members?

Read our adventures in Miami regarding venues, promoters & bands- http://bit.ly/longestthread

That title sure gets right to the point. ha.

Sounds like they were set in their ways.

Haha.

Well, a sad, ironic “Haha.”

Do they apologize?

Sounds like you’re running a pro operation.

Any good, honest, awesome venues in that area you recommend?

Great! Thanks for sharing.

Did he ask you to do any parlor tricks, too?

House concerts are especially great for respectful, attentive audiences.

House concerts are especially great for respectful, attentive audiences.

House concerts are especially great for respectful, attentive audiences.

Hmmm. Kinda shady. Sounds like they wanted some wiggle room after the fact.

I’ve certainly seen the logic in this move, and have been happy to let people in for free before if it was a slow night. But I appreciated being asked by the club beforehand. It’s really annoying though, when the club is packed and you hear about a bunch of people being let in for free just because.

Oooo. Zeroing out the register! Nasty trick.

Standard practices would be great. I wish venue owners would draw up a kind of commonly accepted model that is fair to all, and then stick to it. Oh, sorry. I was daydreaming for a second there.

Do you find that clubs are usually resistant to anything union-related?

Great perspective, and always very interesting to hear how things are done outside the United States.

A 3-month battle of the bands? Wow. That’s a lot of competition.

Did they even listen to your music before booking you?

Suddenly I feel quite melancholy.

Ah. A pragmatist. Can’t say I blame you. These things certainly feel like constants.

Buying tickets to your own show is something every band should do once, and then learn form their mistake and never do it again.

I’m picking up the certain breadcrumb trail you’ve been leaving on this pond’s lilly pads.

I’m picking up the certain breadcrumb trail you’ve been leaving on this pond’s lilly pads.

That’s one way to get into shows for free.

Ah, so true. Thanks for adding these to the discussion. Your number 4 is really annoying when you spend time crafting a particular bill because you suspect a certain combination of bands will draw. All of a sudden, your fans have to choose one band to credit, and they’ll probably just blurt out the headliner.

Ah, so true. Thanks for adding these to the discussion. Your number 4 is really annoying when you spend time crafting a particular bill because you suspect a certain combination of bands will draw. All of a sudden, your fans have to choose one band to credit, and they’ll probably just blurt out the headliner.

There is a comfort in a regular gig, for sure, even if it means you have to put up with a few inconveniences.

There is a comfort in a regular gig, for sure, even if it means you have to put up with a few inconveniences.

Nice move ransoming the laptop for your owed fee.

Nice move ransoming the laptop for your owed fee.

In public, with a few of your friends?

In public, with a few of your friends?

Yes indeed. Always find out EVERYTHING that could potentially come out of the door money.

I guess it all depends on what their agreement is. If he says “Hey, come play for free once a month” then no, she isn’t getting ripped off. But it seems like they should have a money conversation and see if payment is something they could build towards as the crowd size grows.

Maybe you could show up at the bar unannounced and play a long set of the worst possible music you could imagine making, and tell him you want stop until your check clears the bank.

The band only got 1% of the door?

Sneaky devils.

It depends. That is a pretty standard practice, but it gets a bit upsetting when there is money for the sound engineer, money for the door person, money for the club, money for the promoter, until all that’s left is $200 to split between 3 bands with 4 members each. But it seems like a bar that doesn’t even do drink tickets or a tab is a bit overly frugal. I mean, you’re SURROUNDED by beer and alcohol!

Funny that you mention that scenario with that exact figure. I have friends who have played the same gig for 13 years at that rate without adjusting for inflation, standard of living costs, etc.

Ouch. Did you give them money back? Or is that why they badmouthed you to the next club?

I’m speechless.

Instant karma.

People forget about the fact that the money gets split between multiple members, for the time they spent traveling, practicing, playing, waiting, etc.

That is a stupid promoter who brags openly about ripping off his acts. I wonder how business is for him now. Slow?

Hahaha.

Sounds like you’re making do with the hand you’re dealt, and doing good things with it.

2 words: taser gun.

That point is so true that it’s often forgotten. Why would 2 parties, both intent on making a night successful, not put terms and expectations in writing?

That point is so true that it’s often forgotten. Why would 2 parties, both intent on making a night successful, not put terms and expectations in writing?

Nice way to keep it optimistic. I feel the same way. If you focus on the negative then you will subsequently draw that situation to occur. You should focus on your performance only and allow your management team to focus on merchandise sales. The door should be handled through pre ticket sales prior to the event. Anything last minute is considered the venues normal income. Contracts are contracts so everyone must abide but; life is life so for heart attack sake “Relax”.

“Maximum pay/Minimum screwage” sounds like a blog post waiting to be written!

I forget. Honestly it’s water under the bridge now. I’m not playing clubs anymore. I have 2 children and no time for the games of promoters, clubs, soundmen etc. Sorry to add such a dour note to this message board but I feel it’s important for the bright-eyed, eager young people out there to realize this is, at times, a truly heartless business.

Yes they did. They loved the music. At least the rep did.

Yes they did. They loved the music. At least the rep did.

Yes they did. They loved the music. At least the rep did.

this club is now closed. what a surprise….

this club is now closed. what a surprise….

this club is now closed. what a surprise….

Dave, sometimes a dour note can ring out as quite refreshing.

Dave, sometimes a dour note can ring out as quite refreshing.

Dave, sometimes a dour note can ring out as quite refreshing.

Weird. I wonder why they were so surprised then. Well, either way, sorry you had that experience.

Weird. I wonder why they were so surprised then. Well, either way, sorry you had that experience.

Weird. I wonder why they were so surprised then. Well, either way, sorry you had that experience.

That’s a great concept. Unfortunately, in my area, there are about 100 venues and 10,000 bands. It’s called over saturation. No solution in the near future.

That’s a great concept. Unfortunately, in my area, there are about 100 venues and 10,000 bands. It’s called over saturation. No solution in the near future.

Hey Roy, I just added these three additions to the actual article. Thanks!

Hey Roy, I just added these three additions to the actual article. Thanks!

I owned a club and live venue for many years in miami, fl and have run many events and concerts nationwide for years. I have then assisted in band and label management for years, generating revenue and world tours. First things first.. a $300 payday for 150 people showing up isn’t horrible. What is horrible is as a band, you think that is your only way to generate revenue. You have cd’s (and signed cd’s for a few dollars more maybe) you have merchandise like stickers, tshirts, to start..many other options are there. Remember, this is “work” and is not easy..you complained that there is set-up time and break down time.. that is part of your work. if you do not like what you do, then there are plenty of 9-5 jobs out there. Hopefully you didn’t have to pay the staff at the venue, or the electric bills, or the marketing, or the cleaning crew afterwards, or the sound engineer or..(should i really continue?) or be forced to “buy” tickets to play the venue and must sell them to profit..It just sounds like you want a piece of the pie that isn’t your to begin with. You are 1 part of the entire evening’s “experience”, and hopefully you do what you are being hired to do; “Entertain the crowd”

Also, what we did as a venue (and requested venues did for us when we were getting paid by the door) is the venue has the security staff checking for ID’s but ALL cash transactions are handled by the band’s representative. If you choose to let the hot girls in for free, then that is your choice. You set the rules.

There are many other options. Want more advice? Want to create more revenue? Contact info@facelesstechnologies.com

http://www.facelesstechnologies.com

One gimmick is to sell or worse yet have the artist sell tickets for a set amount then try paying the artist something like 10%. They need to be paying at least 50% and that’s being generous on your part since you put the butts in the seats.

One we ran into big time a a couple of clubs, esp if you’re working for the door where you are filling the clubs. BRING YOUR OWN DOOR MAN! we pay ours 50$ or 5% of the door which ever is greater, that way the more they collect the better and they have the power to negotiate. For example it’s getting late, they’ll take 3 bucks instead of 5 just to get some money for us instead of walking out. Make sure they are from out of town so their buddies don’t get in free. I expect a little loss when locals are running our door. I wouldn’t charge my good friends either but that’s why I’m not at the door. We had a club (Lock Stock and Barrel in Decatur, IL) Skimming hundreds of dollars for years before we finally figured out what we should be making. The door guys skimmed (2 doors) the management skimmed, and probably kickbacked the bar staff. They freaked when we brought our own guys. We said they could run the door but we wanted to check a tally for ourselves so if they ran the door our guy would have a counter. Stopped the skimming, we made a LOT more per show and then moved on to another club in that town. If your making nothing but the door they shouldn’t have a right to tell you you can’t bring your own staff.

Yeah, even though we aren’t paid $1000 – $5000 a show, we have to blow people away on stage to make it look like we are part of the tour and getting paid that much. Eventually we will get there.

This happened at a gig once with a bar owner. there was a pub crawl going on and the owner invited about 20 people down on a night we were working sucessfully for the door. I explained him letting them in free is 100 bucks to the band and we don’t want to pay it, he got pissed and I replied, lets just fix it this way then, charge them to come in and you give them free drinks. he wasn’t cool about that either so we hit him up on break for the 100 bucks, We got paid. and Never came back. The club across the street now gets our crowd.

If it IS in fact the Lilly Pad; I played a bill with Brett Dennen there a few years ago and they never paid me a dime that was in the agreement. I didn’t fight it. What’s the point? You decide not to go back, don’t give yourself a heart attack, and live to play another day. There ARE venues that are worth it. Original music – expect no pay. Covers – going rate is still $100 per guy per night (inflation woes aside). Most places won’t sign contracts. You have to weed places out by trial & error. I recommend that everyone here do the smart thing and find a way to get a real job in the health care industry or something along those lines. Being on this side of the gun is way too haphazard.

1% of the door is a joke. I used to DJ a club and got 10% of the bar ring. I also worked as an in house performer at another club and got 100% of the door. 1%? Please.

Down here in Miam, Florida clubs do not generally sign contracts as a rule. The band market is so over-saturated down here that clubs have the upper hand. I do feel pretty good about the fact that we have been able to pull in no less than $500/night and sometimes 600 or 700 for our performances. Of course, this is all covers – even though I have have my own CD out and on iTunes – doesn’t matter – they just want covers and there is no venue who cares about all original artists unless they are already known. Some clubs will try the ripoff of bands and we learn and hear from others about them and don’t even bother to play there. Make friends with other bands and don’t talk about other bands and you can all help each other.

Down here in Miam, Florida clubs do not generally sign contracts as a rule. The band market is so over-saturated down here that clubs have the upper hand. I do feel pretty good about the fact that we have been able to pull in no less than $500/night and sometimes 600 or 700 for our performances. Of course, this is all covers – even though I have have my own CD out and on iTunes – doesn’t matter – they just want covers and there is no venue who cares about all original artists unless they are already known. Some clubs will try the ripoff of bands and we learn and hear from others about them and don’t even bother to play there. Make friends with other bands and don’t talk about other bands and you can all help each other.

Good luck with that. There are so many bands and musicians looking for gigs, the ones that think a contract is necessary get laughed at. Have you booked a nightclub before?

Good luck with that. There are so many bands and musicians looking for gigs, the ones that think a contract is necessary get laughed at. Have you booked a nightclub before?

Faceless Technology,

I have been on both sides of the coin also. If the band agreed upon making $300, then that’s one thing. ……But, if the band had agreed upon $5 per person that enters the door, then the venue CHEATED that band out of their rightful money.

What’s right is right.

Faceless Technology,

I have been on both sides of the coin also. If the band agreed upon making $300, then that’s one thing. ……But, if the band had agreed upon $5 per person that enters the door, then the venue CHEATED that band out of their rightful money.

What’s right is right.

excellent article.. thanks

excellent article.. thanks

Thanks, yo.

Thanks, yo.

Pesky open mics!

Bummer.

Sounds right. Absorbing those costs probably just became habit.

About ’91, I had a Duo that was booked through a decent agent at a small lounge / hotel across the ferry from Seattle — it was when playing to midi tracks was the new thing- (and hated by many of course)

the 1st night of the 5 night gig, Tues, a small crowd from a wedding next door came in and had a great time — at the end of the night the owner called us into the office, and very nicely and with apologies , let us go…..what??!

he explained that he thought we were just fine and professional, but he wanted musicians that “played their own instruments–nothing personal, I’m sorry, I’m just old fashioned” –

we were so dumbstruck it took a minute to sink in —
he thought we were completely faking it to the midi tracks,
(I played ‘real’ rhythm and lead, the other guy ‘really’ sang and played rhythm)

I wished I had the presence of mind to tell him that all the tracks were manually done by me etc etc, but realized over the weeks that
nothing I said would have mattered …

we got paid for the one night

I’m a musician AND an agent and this article is 100% on the money. I can’t tell you how many of those scenarios I’ve seen or even been subjected to in 40 years of playing professionally. I’m recommending that every one of the bands I handle or know read this article, especially the younger guys who are still falling prey to this kind of baloney.

Here’s a scam I used to encounter recently as a solo artist, one man show: “We can only pay you $25.00 or $50.00 bucks but we get real good crowds here and you’ll get a lot of tips and our audience always buys a lot of CDs from the artists. Then, show up and find out there has been no promotion at all, 25 people show up and you get $5.00 or $10.00 in tips and sell 1 or 2 CDs.

A decade later and no one would’ve cared!

I guess you can look at it like you were trendsetters.

I guess that all depends on what your definition of “a lot” is.

This is the way it should be everywhere. I like this attitude. Would you be willing to share what your contract lays out?

When you can get them to do it. If you go for the risk and get stiffed, call the venue owner in the morning and tell them they must pay or you will file – small claims court in most states and will spread the word to other acts, your fan base and the general populace that they are not trustworthy enough to do business with. If they still balk, follow through. Send an email to your list explaining the situation (make sure it’s 100% accurate to ensure you can’t be counter-sued for slander. Call every musician you know. Call any media or news contacts you have. Then call the list of lawyers you can get from your state’s bar association and see if you can cut a ‘barter’ deal to play a party for them in return for making a few phone calls and sending a registered ‘demand for payment’.

The added benefit is that lawyers love to have live entertainment at house parties. One band I played parties for lawyers at least once a month for almost two years after consulting one in one of these situations.

I think the most my band has earned from a single show was $75 (not each, we’re a 5 piece, so $15 each). And that was after 3 bands left before being paid, so we received their cut as well. Living in Miami sucks for live shows.

Things are tough all over.

That would be amazing! I’ve often wished the standard bill was 2 bands, 8:30-11pm. Perfection.

Speaking of, I still need to pay some of the opening acts from a few shows last month! Thanks for the reminder.

It’s a weird world when the next wrung up the ladder from Hollywood pay-to-play clubs is LA play-for-free clubs. Baby steps!

Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahahahha.

Sinem, do you play original music or covers at colleges and weddings? I know it’s pretty typical for colleges to hire musicians that play their own music, but less so for weddings. (Though a few of my friends bands do get hired to play their stuff occasionally at weddings, it isn’t really regular money they could count on.)

ha. Hope so.

Another commenter in this thread had some pretty good advice about getting to know a few lawyers and offering to trade your services (play a house party) for help in drafting a nice, official sounding “get me my money NOW” kinda letter.

You take the blue pill – the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill – you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.

Agreed.

True. People have so many more entertainment alternatives now. In order to get them excited about going to a club for music, it’s really got to be a great show.

It’s impressive to hear about a group of professionals who have got their process for booking, press, promotion, sound, and everything else as streamlined as can be. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Yeah. That is a bit confusing. I think what Roy was trying to say is “open your eyes to these kinds of situations and you’ll be more likely to protect yourself in the future, and thus, get paid.” I think I’ll take that sentence out of the article, though. Just to avoid excess pondering.

Is that page live yet? I’d love to see it.

Hey C, I hope this article didn’t come across as saying all bookers and club owners were out to screw musicians. Most of the time, in my experience, everyone wants the same thing and wants to help each other reach that goal.

One of the commenters in the thread offered to share his if you contact him directly.

That is a good dose of reality. Thanks for sharing.

We play for free because we’re told, as young musicians just starting out, that’s the only way our music will get heard in the beginning. We’re led to believe that this is the way everyone does it, and that we’re just “paying our dues,” and that we don’t yet have enough experience to get paid what we really deserve. And for us, playing for cheap is better than not playing at all.

#4,5 & 6 hit too close to home I go thru that bullshit all the time.

I think I’m done paying my dues. I think from now on I’m going to collect my dues.

Hopefully you didn’t experience any flashbacks from this article.

…Wait… I’m not done here yet. “Cover dance bands?” What about original dance bands? Or rock bands? Or anything that works better in a bar/club than in a vegan bakery/coffee shop where it’s boring enough and quiet enough to hear your unaccompanied vintage Ovation? And by special event do you mean playing on an outdoor stage at 10:00 AM for free in order to “promote” your music to some guy who might as well watch you while his kid finishes his ice cream? There’s a fan-base that’ll create some buzz. I’m hereby done reading comments on CD-Baby. The artists are either too old, too out of touch, or too bitter. Often they are all three. STDs? How the holy hell can you tell who has an STD by looking at them?!

Can you send me a copy of your contract so i can use it as well!! PRETTY PLEASE!!!!! aokproduction@ymail.com

So basically: check and see if you live in/are playing in Los Angeles. Then you’ll know you’re getting ripped off.

A fool-proof test!

All great articles. Gavin always has something funny to say about tours.

Well done!

Here in Finland we used to play normally with 1000e + PA (roughly 850e+ 23% VAT) and our salesman got a 20% cut of the selling price, so we were left with 800e for car rental and gasoline and the rest was divided for the 3 of us… so roughly 200e per head for a gig. Sometimes it was better, more often a bit less also though. There was usually a food catering in a restaurant, and a lot of beer and cider, vodka, energy drinks, sandwiches, fruits etc at the backstage. These did not affect our pay ever, as someone said would be the case sometimes in the US. Accomodation was always also included, and usually in a hotel (the bigger the city, the bigger the hotel). These were always written on the contract too. Needless to mention the free alcohol became boring pretty fast during the first year of gigging.

Like for all bands, we had our bad venues and good venues, ranging from a couple of people to 5000-7000 people arena live TV shows. We had several top5 singles here and spent almost a year on the official club charts with the biggest hit. We did over a 100 shows within a couple of years along making and releasing our album. Now it has been exactly 1 year and 1 week since our last show, and that venue still hasn’t paid our booker. The thing is in court. But I don’t care for the money, I’ve been working 3,5 years in a plastic factory packing plastic. I would only love to get to have a lot of shows again and make new music. But the morning/evening/night shifts at work eat all my creative strength and time. Although, the work has funded me all the tools I need for the next records.

Sorry about the quality. The original is a PDF. A line is missing at the bottom for the signature of the venue operator.

Played recently at a “Country Music Club” I’m 63 and I couldn’t believe how many people were there that were my age and were obviously dead from the ankles up. I played all originals which I’ve been playing around the beer joints for a few years. her was actually some life returned to the house. I recently played in the US and was received well playing slide and or harmonica. Tho only for tips in coffee houses. These lead to bigger venues so I suppose there is a place for everything and everyone in this world of music. I look forward to going back to Tx if I don’t die first!

I’ve been performing for about 35 years…one of the most memorable nightmares was a gig in Vail, Colo. in 1980 with a well known local Denver area artist. We finished the gig which was not promoted by them at all. The club owner in a full mink coat ( I kid you not) told the band leader if he wanted to be paid in cocaine. We weren’t druggies so we just got the h$#% out of there and never went back. Two weeks later the owner was in the newspaper for being arrested for dealing coke out of the club…

I loved reading this. I recently did a blog post on the same topic, entitled: Pay to Play is the Boogeyman of Music. lol — and you know it is true. http://suebasko.blogspot.com/2011/08/pay-to-play-is-boogeyman-of-music.html

Pay-to-Play: Boo!

Moose certainly sounds like a big man.

Ha.

Maybe they should have allowed 1/3rd of their body in the venue.

i’d love a copy also! thanks! mattaniahs@gmail.com

Thanks for the info. Send an email to cdbaby@cdbaby.com and address it to the marketing department. Or, since we’re right in town, feel free to stop by any time 9-5 M-F!

AFM scales (wages) vary from Local to Local, as each Local sets the rates for their region, and they are just minimums. You can always charge as much as you can get. We just work to create a floor.

Coming from a punk/DIY background, I say, set up your own gigs before begging your friendly neighborhood watering hole to give you a fair shake. The logistics can be maddening, and you’re still taking all the risk, but at least you call your own shots — and you get to divide your own spoils…what a concept!

For example: I lived in a small town that had an alternative coffeehouse/bookstore space. We hosted an art show of my wife’s work there. For the opening night, we made the gig free, to take the edge off “that $4 cover is just way too much” excuse — plus, we had food, and a couple different music acts (including yours truly).

Our money came from the art sales, plus we also passed a tip jar around at the end of the night — as I recall, we walked away with about $120-150 from the experience, which proved sufficiently positive to repeat on the closing night, with a similar format (and result). And that’s from selling art! Now, imagine what you could with CDs and merchandise in this scenario. You get the idea.

In short, think of alternative settings where you can present your music to better advantage — I’ve recently played in front of an organic food store (as part of a summer series), and a resale shop run by the local emergency shelter, and those were two of the most satisfying experiences I’ve had. The connections you make will probably provide more satisfying results.

At the end of the day, you’re only as good as the company you keep — and if you’re surrounded by greaseballs and goombahs with clipped cigars sticking out of their mouths, giving you the classic line (“What else ya got, kid?”), guess what? You’re going to get stiffed, every time. No surprises there.

The Portland initiative sounds like a good idea, because it encourages musicians to think of the big picture — what’s good for everybody, versus “me, me, me and only me,” which is another problem that I’ve witnessed in many places. That’s no surprise, in a nation that puts such a premium on the “lone ranger”…but a little bit of creativity and collective action goes a long way… in my experience, at least.

Nice going with the artshow opening and closing. Sounds fun. And thanks for sharing.

Thanks for sharing this and for your work on behalf of musicians!

They don’t want this be cause its harder to ripp you off

Baltimore’s not my hometown, so I’m uncertain. Unfortunately, too many of us artists have the “it’ll be different for me” mentality when passed advice from another artist.

Yes i would like a copy… greggmanraupp@yahoo.com

Hey could I also get a copy too please? thanks my friend, my email is stl@santaluciamusic.com

I am a hardcore advocate of paying musicians to play. If the music is quality, they will pay for it. In the best possible way you can, itemize what you are paying for to provide quality music for the bar. List prices of strings, microphones, pa systems, gas, practice studio fees, etc. Treat it like a job, show up early, help put away stools and chairs at the end of the night, clean up after yourself, etc. Present yourself as a business person and not a ‘musician’. You’ll get better shows and venues that way. And no one ever works better in an alternative state of mind. You’re only lowering your own perception of what’s good.

There is a club that is guilty of most of these things on a regular basis. The sad part is, it’s a club that is known to be a music venue, and you’d think they wouldn’t want to be ripping off the bands that play there. They also like to hold up the bands from playing until everyone is done eating at the tables they have on the stage. Again, you’re a music venue. Why do you have tables on the stage when you know a band is coming in to play?? They make you pay the sound guy. They make you sell tickets. They also charge at the door for those who don’t have tickets, and you should get that door money, but you will see them just letting pretty much anyone walk right in without charging them. What is this horrible venue, you ask? Maybe you’ve heard of it… it’s called The Hard Cafe.

hello, I just got this email. If someone would please send me a copy of a good contract I would be so humble with blessings and and thank you’s for your help. Been burned many times in many ways. Blessings and wishing you enough, my email is dancesonthewinds@hotmail.com. Wa-do’/thak you in Cherokee, TerryLee

Young bands bring out huge crowds. When my band was in high school, we’d get a load of high school kids out and set up our own shows by renting venue space.

I see a lot of young high school and college bands do the battle of the bands, or pay for almost nothing for exposure when they’re bringing loads of people out and would make so much more money putting on their own shows.

So to make it as a musician, you just have to assume that club owners and clubs are dishonest.

That’s huge coming from someone who used to run a club. I grew up in Ohio, and in cities like Columbus, if you want to play at one of the better clubs and aren’t well known, the club actually does expect you to pay their sound engineer with ticket sales.

I know plenty of touring and up and coming acts who I rarely see play shows in Columbus or Ohio because all of the clubs are after bands hard earned work.

And I have to disagree $300 for four hours of entertainment and 150 people paying at the door is NOT a fair deal. A single DJ would charge that kind of money without even having a cover charge.

You shouldn’t HAVE to assume someone is going to be dishonest… that’s the issue to me. Too many people have no integrity and are completely selfish.

No. We have a full sound system that we prefer to use because we’re used to it, familiar with it, and have a great sound guy to run it. But we make sure to add the cost of paying an engineer into what we charge. The band’s job is to provide music. It’s like any other service. You do a service, and you get paid. It’s up to whoever is booking to pay for the service, whether it’s paying their own people or yours.

A legit venue should never balk at a contract. It protects BOTH parties. It clearly states that YOU will be providing a service, and THEY will be providing compensation. You have to sign a contract for any service, but for some reason people don’t think entertainers need to. Not true. If anything, it should be more important, because once you do your part, you can’t un-play if they don’t pay you. If you take your car to a mechanic and don’t pay, you don’t get your car, it’s simple. Music is a business, not a community service.

Had that happen… we played a show that we wanted to use our PA, the clubs “sound guy”, who was nothing more than a janitor that could turn the volume up and down, said it was too much of a hassle, and insisted we use their system. We specifically said we didn’t want to because we didn’t want them to try and blame us if anything was broken, but to no avail. Sure enough, after everything was torn down, the wood (pressed board junk) box of the drum monitor had a crack about 3 inches in it, which they tried blaming on us, saying it was from people standing on the monitor… and claiming that he saw it being done. The monitor was next to the drums on a side he couldn’t get to, with a bass rig right infront of it (6 foot tall stack) and the lead guitar on the other side, completely boxed in, with the rear stage curtain right behind it. You couldn’t even GET to it on stage to try and stand on it… The drummer said he noticed it during set up, but the club denied it. Good reason to look over any equipment that is not yours closely, and document any pre-existing damage, and make sure the owner sees it too.

Yeah, there’s definitely a difference between legitimate reasons for an event not bringing in the money expected, and a crooked business owner trying to stiff the band. I haven’t owned a venue, but I have been involved in booking/promoting events, so I’ve got a bit of experience from both sides of the scope. I know we played a show once, not realizing that the night we were booked to play, there was a huge youth event that night in the same town, the grand opening of a rave club, and a town 40 minutes away had a huge 20 band festival going on… they usually pulled in 300-400 people a night. Aside from the staff, our crew, and friends of the venue that they let in, I think there were 5 people that were actual customers. Yet, he still paid us what he promised, taking the loss. That’s integrity. We went back and played there for free, just taking what we made in merch. On the other side, we helped book for a show, and one of the bands that we booked decided to show what big “rock stars” they were by sneaking in people, beer and weed in through the back door, and kicking holes in the green room walls. Not only did we have to pay for the damage (which came from that bands cut), none of the bands that played are ever welcome at that venue again, even though only 1 band had to be jerks. If everyone realized that showing respect benefits everyone, the “biz” would be more enjoyable and profitable all around.

It’s about the same in our area. The key to making those gigs worthwhile is shameless self promotion and having merchandise. By self promotion I mean promoting you website and letting the crowd know that you’re available for parties etc. If you can get a private function for $1K+ for a 5 piece band then your $200 gig is worth while.
If you can sell 5 t-shirts and 5 CDs at $15 a pop then you’re closer to worthwhile.
We play at a restaurant locally. It’s a 7 -9:30 show.The owner gives us a $200 guarantee plus food and drinks and allows us to sell merch and pass a tip jar. Although merch sales are historically spotty there we typically take in $100 – $200 in tips and have gotten several private functions out of the deal. We don’t have to deal with drunks and we’re home by 11…..

Could you send this contract to me? johnsmith00042@gmail.com

Yes, I suddenly want to move to Holland. I wish the USA was like that….but we are millenniums away from that….

Awesome. Thanks for all this info.

Awesome. Thanks for all this info.

I promote shows and work with promoters all the time taking pictures. I totally disagree with Roys idea that an artist shouldn’t sell tickets for a show. The purpose of being an artist is to attract people to a show to make money. As, a promoter I want to put people on my show that will bring their fans. I will share some of the ticket price with the artist. I also hope that once the fans see the show that they not only stay fans of the artist or group that sold them the ticket. I hope that they also become fans of the other groups and artists.

Thanks for sharing. Good points.

This is why I refuse to play in clubs, only concert venues. And yes, have a contract and make sure you get an 80% deposit up front and then 20% before setting foot on the stage. Works for me:)

Helpful tip depending on your jurisdiction and the laws therein:

How many bands have been paid with a check made out to (Your Band’s Name Here) that they couldn’t cash (and possibly the bar owner was COUNTING on the band not being able to cash -YAY HIM! FREE ENTERTAINMENT!) because the band only existed as any sort of entity on the poster.

I spend the $35 at my county courthouse to get a d/b/a (Doing Business As) with the band’s name on it. This works a bunch of ways, but not the least of which is that if I’m handed a check made out to the band I can go to a branch of his bank, present a copy of the d/b/a, and cash his check because I have a legal document stating that I, the person, am ‘doing business as’ the band. I effectively AM the band, at least for the purpose of getting my hands on my rightful legal tender.

Also useful when the band breaks up, and one of the opposing faction wants to continue on using the name I OWN.

Second tip: Small claims court has been, in my limited experience in having to haul “critter clubs” in there following a late cancellation/double booking, a VERY friendly place for musicians who’ve been screwed. I am undefeated, representing my band myself (and I’m a nurse, not a lawyer) in getting JUDGEMENTS. I am winless in actually getting PAID. The judge doesn’t hand you the money, just a piece of paper saying you’re legally entitled to the money. Collecting is still a whole separate issue. That’s where the drummer’s brother being a lawyer comes in handy.

[...] 1. Top 3 Ways to Tell You’re Getting Ripped Off by a Club or Booker [...]

I actually learnt this from my dear friend Matt E Silver from NYC. We did a show in Baja, Mexico somewhere in 1992 with Joey Beltram, Guru Josh, Altern-8 a.o. and we were actually the only ones who got paid (because Matt E insisted on money upfront) of course we completely turned over our camper before crossing the border back into the USA just to make sure we weren’t used as drug runners… A wise lesson from Matt E which I never said goodbye to!

If you are able, please send a copy to Truthmusicrecords@gmail.com as well. Thank you!!

The best way to make sure you get paid for a gig is have a friend who is a ” ringer ” and carries a LOADED firearm!. Believe it or not I have experienced this.
Sidney Duane Helmer

Wow! You’d be the worst person for a promoter to scam.

Could you send a copy of your contract to troutsteakrevival@gmail.com please? Thanks for all your help!

if possible I would like to get a copy of that contract – thank you

mw@toast.net

they only got $300 after bring ing 150 people. thats $2 per person. Nobody should be playing for that kind of payout.

I’ve seen that, “let people in for free” stuff happen a lot. One way I’ve found to help with proper end of night counts is to have a friend or super fan be your door counter with a tally hand counter clicking everyone that pays throughout the night until at least 1/2 hour before close, not just for the first set or two. You’ll see a marked difference in your favor at settlement time.