It’s a weird balancing act, especially when you get older, because your fans/friends might still come out in droves, but only on weekends, between 8:30-11pm. So obviously you’re gunning for the prime slots on the best nights, BUT… if you haven’t proven yourself to a club, they’ll want to test you out on an off-night, a Monday or Tuesday when you have little hope of rallying your local fans. Tightrope dancing!

Law of the Harvest. Nice philosophy! I like that.

Great questions. I was thinking of this the other day listening to one of my favorite songwriters whose work is relatively unknown, in the grand scheme of things. He can pack out 500-seat theaters all over, and isn’t hurting for cash, but still… he’ll never be a hit on a Lady Gaga scale. So I was wondering, what does it matter if I think this man is 1000 times more talented a writer, lyricist, singer, and guitarist than other bands or singers that are 1000 times more popular. Obviously way MORE people respond to those other artists, and that must mean, on one level, that they are better than this guy I think is an absolute genius. Oh well.

I find Ron Huneycutt’s comments interesting: “… we have our own PA system … and a lighting system …” I have never been in a band that DIDN’T have its own PA and lighting system. We traveled all over BC and some points east of that – and took all our gear with us. However – I disagree with the comments above – that we provide a “service – like a retail clerk.” The day that a retail clerk spends YEARS learning his/her craft, writing/creating songs, rehearsing, honing his/her playing skills – is the day that they are similar to us – and that the “service” we provide is similar to theirs. We are CRAFTSMEN & WOMEN – who CREATE on a daily basis. If we are a cover performer or group that wants to stay in business, we keep our repertoire current – and should be able to play at least FOUR 45-minute sets in MOST currently commercial genres. If we are an all-original group (as mine is) we should be able to play at least FOUR 45-minute sets of our own music. 40 yrs ago – I was making between $175 to $200 per night – in venues that were SET UP to be primarily music venues – for performing 4 sets a night. The MUSIC was the reason for the venue’s existence – and the VENUE was responsible for promotion, sound, lighting, etc. – because THAT was its actual BUSINESS. Nowadays – the venue is a restaurant, a pub, a sports bar – and the musicians are treated like a wurlizter – and are paid about the same. NOW – the Musicians must be responsible because there are no longer venues that exist solely to showcase Musicians. Now – we play for pass-the-hat money – instead of a negotiated wage – even though our presence increases the venues’ revenue. I’m almost waiting for them to start charging us for the paltry amount of electricity we use for our gear. OUR business is to make Music – and to make the best possible experience for the audience. All the subsidiary stuff – that has nothing to do with making Music – but selling it – belongs to the auspices of agents, managers, promoters, venue owners, etc. That’s THEIR business. Doing all that stuff yourself – pretty much guarantees control remaining with you – and saves you money in fees – but it doesn’t actually MAKE you money . . . because all the time you would normally spend MAKING MUSIC – you now have to spend dealing with the promotional side of the business . . . and if you were to figure out the true cost of THAT job – you’d soon realise that, over-all, between ALL the hats you’re wearing – you’re being paid LESS than a juke-box – and in some cases – are paying to play. Well . . . ask a lawyer, doctor, plumber, electrician how they’d feel about that . . .

many of these posts seem to ignore that if the cost of live music is too high compared to the revenue made by the bar, the bar won’t book anybody. if you don’t like how bars pay, go rent an Elks club. musicians need to get over their attitude of entitlement and become literate about what business is.

I have this conversation with fellow musicians all the time and I don’t think there is any one rule or one way that will fit everyone. We all have to find our own ongoing balance with the money/music/love/ thing. Because of the internet/digital revolution, the record companies no longer control the means of producing albums. Anyone can do it and anyone does. There has never been so much music available as there is right now. I’ll bet at least a new thousand songs were uploaded to the net since I started typing this. Music is everywhere. 100 cable stations with wall to wall music, every store, restaurant and office building has it, it’s in our phones and it’s in our iPods where any new artist has to compete with artists at the level of Dylan, The Beatles and The Stones to get “airplay”. There have never been more people seeking fame than there are right now. And yet, we are a music and information saturated culture. There’s never been more supply and at the same time, I don’t think there’s ever been less of a demand. And even at high priced concert venues, many people come and talk through the entire show. Listening is becoming a dying art. I’m grateful anyone listens to anything ever, let alone me.

A few years back I decided to make all of my music (25 albums at the moment) available for downloading free or with a donation at my site. I also listed them all for digital distribution on CD Baby. I got tired of riding the hope and disappointment, should I or shouldn’t I, musical business roller-coaster. So I just got off. I decided instead to focus on the parts of doing music that I loved the best: writing, recording and performing. I’ve yet to find a way to get anyone to value something they didn’t value, so I let people decide for themselves if my music was valuable to them. I mostly focus on making the music.

Since I started doing this, I’ve made more money from tips at my site and downloads through CD Baby than I ever made when I was just selling the CD’s. It’s not a fortune mind you, but then I’m not making a living at music, never have, and almost certainly never will. It just really felt right for me to offer what I do freely, and then see what freely came back. So far, I’ve really been enjoying what’s been coming back.

But that’s just me. I’m 54, play solo, and do mostly original folky singer-songwriter type stuff that’s not exactly setting the music world on fire. If I can sell CD’s and put out a tip jar, I’m happy to play anywhere my music is appropriate. I don’t travel so I’m not much of a draw in my town, but I do all right. By patiently doing what I’ve been doing for the last 5 years, playing mostly background-y kind of stuff and playing to concert audiences about 1-3 hours a year, I’ve slowly built a good reputation as a performer and writer. This year I got to open for America, solo, in front of 1500 people. It was the best gig I’ve ever had and may well be the best gig I’ll ever have. The next morning I was back at a local coffeehouse playing for tips, $20, and free coffee and I was happy to do it.

After many years of struggling with this issue, quitting music altogether several times, and in general being in a state of low level misery about whether to do it at all, this way of doing music finally feels great. I’ve never enjoyed doing it more, I’ve never made more money at it, and I’ve never had more success than I’m having right now. But again, that’s just me. I understand that performers who are younger, or who are trying to make a living at music, or who play music that’s more in demand would feel differently. We each have to find our place and the best balance we can, and, like physical
balance, it’s never a done deal, but always a work in progress.

ditto,except the festivals,at my level they are paying 100 to 150 man,for 45 min. to 75 min. but of course they are seasonal and travel time included prob comes out the same

Most of these comments convey one main idea. As a musician, you get paid exactly what you think you’re worth!

The math seems pretty simple to me: If there are 10 venues and 100 bands, the pay is whatever the 10 lowest bidders are willing to take. Bar owners bring in bands with the hopes of selling food and beer and earning new customers. Bands play in new venues in hopes of adding to their following. Some bands will settle for the door; some bands will settle for the tip jar. The restaurant business is tough; margins are thin: expecting a bar to pay top dollar on a chance of bringing in a good crowd when he can get an okay band for next to nothing, he has much less to lose going with the okay band, especially when there’s no shortage of them willing to work for the door or the tip jar. If the band is enterprising, it will sell Tee shirts, CDs, and other merchandise. If it is really good and fill the joint every time they play, then it’s time to start negotiating. Play for free or cheap is a form of marketing. If you’re really good and have something unique that people will go out of their way to hear/see, then you can start demanding more money. Until then, it’s whatever the market will bear.

I agree. Music is a great job for those that love it, but it is still work. It’s hard to keep the customers happy and takes complete and intense focus for many hours straight. If we wanted to just have fun, we can ALWAYS play at home.

Many Music venues don’t seem to care who they hire anymore as long as it doesn’t cost them. That is self defeating. People have lots of recreational choices and the first time they pay to get into a venue and have bad music will be their last. You have to vet the musicians you are HIRING. Good musicians will build your customer base & deliver good music that fits your venue. They will help you promote, but the venue must also promote.

Not everyone is meant to be on stage. I see so many people out there with little musical ability, let alone entertainment qualities taking up space on stage for free. Please, I know you play around the camp fire, your family loves your music, you do open mic – do yourself a favor and find someone you don’t have personal attachment to to listen to your music and tell you honestly if your ready for the stage. You may have work to do before you hit that stage.

Songwriters, if you do not actually play an instrument (this does not include strumming chords) If you have not put in time studying music it is hard to write songs. Songs are music. In the past lyricists who weren’t well versed in music hired composers to write their music and arrange it. There is a reason, if you are limited in instrumental ability, your songs will tend to all sound the same, lack melody and drive people to boredom. Which is why many venues are not paying you.

Musicians must make sure they have something worth selling. Venues need to be sure they hire quality music, which will be worth the money they spend for it.

Vicki Price

And albums cost 9.99 twenty years ago, CDs cost 9.99 now. No increases in all this time and musicians still put in their YEARS of songwriting, rehearsing, performing, recording, marketing, etc. We are completely devalue-ized. !!

I agree. I also think a venue should do its part in being a good club that music fans can rely on and has atmosphere. Why would a musician want to play (work) a place that no one goes too?
I also agree that both musician and venue must do their part in advertising. Any band that doesn’t have some internet presence (mailing list) shouldn’t expect gigs. Ditto for the venue. They too must have an up-to-date calender, and book with a sense of vision. What does the club owner want for his place?

Not hating, just educating – I play in tribute bands because people come out to hear music they know and enjoy. Simple case of supply and demand. People will pay for what they want. You will have your stage back when the public demands it.

Considering that the average Portland musician SUCKS, then maybe ZERO is a fair wage, and they are accepting EXACTLY what they are WORTH!

Reading through all these posts was very educating and motivating. I am a comedian and have come across the same thing, even though different art form. I have been doing a monthly show at a venue for over a year and a half now, making a small bar tab ($25) and keeping the door. I split the money between the performers. We average about 65 people per show, which is a good size comedy crowd at this venue. I recently asked for an increase in bar tab ($100-125), and funny enough, no one could give me the green light. After 3 months of being dodged, I made an announcement from the stage at the end of the last show, that would be our last show there. Suddenly, the venue became interested. They still, however, could not give me the increase! Seriously? They did nothing to promote the show. Bartenders told me that my show was one of the biggest nights of the month. But they couldn’t manage an increase in bar tab, let alone me asking for any money from them. I know a lot of you would be kicking my ass for doing a door only deal in the first place, but I’m learning as I’m going. I set myself up with limitations. Thank you for all this information, and if anyone else has any advice on booking and setting prices, etc, I am open to suggestion.